Following Rules

I’ve been following and, to a lesser degree, taking part in a discussion on the Escouts forums about Scout Groups not accepting girls into their sections.

Now first of all, I have to make two points –

1. Policy, Organisation and Rules (PO&R), rule 3.6 states –

f. All Scout Groups, Explorer Scout Units and Scout Networks are required to be open to male and female membership except in special situations. Single sex Sections may exist within a Scout Group provided that membership is available for both sexes across all Sections within that Group.
g. Special situations are defined as being where:
there are cultural or religious requirements for single sex working;
Scouting is offered in a single sex institution (e.g. school, young offenders institute) through a closed Scout Group);
a specialist single sex provision is required to meet a clearly identified educational need (e.g. Scouting for young mothers).
The decision whether Groups may become an exception to the policy is made by the District Commissioner in consultation with the County Commissioner.

So PO&R quite clearly states, that other than in very special circumstances, girls must be accepted into all sections of the Scout Association.

2. To my friends in the BSA, this is in no way me having a go at the BSA’s policies. I am not a member of the BSA (obviously!) and it is not my place to comment on their policies. Girls in (Boy) Scouting in the USA may or may not be a good thing, but I am not in a position to comment – so I won’t!

The discussion is over a couple of Groups who have decided not to allow girls into their Groups. As you may imagine, the discussion has got quite heated!

However, this raises the point that there are Groups out there who are willing to ignore some very major Scout Association rules.

One of the posters has stated that his is a big Group which offers its members a great programme and he challenges the SA to take issue with the Group. The other poster has said that if girls were forced upon the Group, then he and other Leaders would leave.

They are basically saying that they do not agree with specific rules and therefore they are able to ignore them!

As one of the posters is a Group Scout Leader, I find it quite alarming that his Group is actively promoting breaking the rules and ‘daring’ the SA to challenge the Group. What example is this setting to the young people in the Group?
No. 1 in the Scout Law says a ‘Scout is to be Trusted’. If a Group cannot be trusted to abide by the SA rules (PO&R) what hope is there?

The point is that if you join an organisation, you are agreeing to abide by its rules. If you don’t agree with them you can put up with the rule, you can try to get the rule changed or you can leave. Simple.

Some of the people have also stated that they have no girls in their Group, but should they wish to do so then they will be welcomed. The lack of girls in these Groups is down to the girls in their area not wanting to join and not because they are not allowed to!

Girls in Scouting in the UK is now here to stay whether people like it or not. This has been discussed to death in the past and the decision is made. Getting this particular rule changed back to ‘how things used to be’ is never going to happen.

As far as my Group was concerned, we did not take girls in any sections until 2007 as we  did not want to upset the Guides who are associated with the Church that sponsors us.
However since the rules changed in 2007 (which meant Groups could not opt out of having girls), we’ve taken girls in all sections and we have not seen any problems at all. In fact a couple of our girl Scouts who went into Explorers have now become effective Young Leaders.

Indeed as soon as BP started the Scouts, girls wanted to join, but it was the values of the Edwardian era that prevented this.

The point of all this is that we belong to a movement (yes that means that things move on and don’t stay the same) that has rules and one of those rules is that we accept (perhaps I should say welcome) girls into Scouting. The rules are there – like them, lump them or leave.

As I said before, if we as Leaders cannot follow the rules of the organisation we represent, how can we not be hypocrites if we expect the young people of our Groups to follow rules if we are not willing to do so ourselves. We cannot be getting into ‘do as I say, not what I do’ .

5 Replies to “Following Rules”

  1. Hello Nick

    I would like to clarify that I think that girl in scouting is a good thing, and it gives male scouts a chance to interact with the fairer sex, something they are not very good at. It also creates different challenges as there a something girls are better at and encourages young people to work together and use the talents of the group.

    However to play devils advocate somewhat there is no longer an outlet where boy can operate without girls due to so called diversity and inclusion. Should there be one ??

    Please also remember that the only reason that Scouting included girls was after falling numbers and a failure to merge with the Guide Association it was decided that they would open up to girls in an attempt to boost numbers.

    All this said, we are now 10 years down the line and people should accept what we have in place and move forward. If I look at my scout group we have no girls, however we have the ability to take girls and if they came along and they would be welcomed by the group. The rules don’t say you have to have girls they just say that if a girl wants to join she should be allowed to.

    Case in point I had a parent call me the other day about getting his daughter into scouts, we had a long chat and I explained that currently we had no girls, however there were two local troops that had a 50/50 mix. The girl came to visit us and chose to go to another troop as she did not want to be the only girl.

    Part of the problem is that the area I do scouting the parents want their girls to be girls we also have two strong guide units so it is unlikely that we will ever have girls until my daughter gets old enough to join if she wants to.

    Not sure if any of that is beneficial or total Cr@p but it is my thoughts.

    Yours in Scouting
    Kiff

  2. I agree with you! I don’t have any issue with there being Groups with no girls in them as long as they will accept girls if a girl wishes to join. If a girl wants to join Guides that’s their choice and good for them.
    In fact we had a girl who tried out Scouts for a few weeks last year and decided it wasn’t for her and she continued in the Guides. My thought is at least she’s doing something more than watching the TV!
    My main gripe is that there are Groups who believe they can ignore and break the rules of the SA. What message does that portray to their young people? As I said we cannot get into ‘do as I say not what I do’ territory! As I’m sure you are aware as an ACC this is a road we cannot go down otherwise the SA will get into all sorts of problems!

    Thanks for your comments. Just reading your blog now!
    YIS

    Nick

  3. Nick

    I total agree it is not a path that we want to start down.
    As you mentioned I am an ACC and there are times when my personal views on a topic are different to that of the SA, however I am part of a movement which I feel does a wonderful job and you must consider what is best for the Movement as a whole not “You”.

    YIS

    Kiff

  4. I totally agree with all your points, Nick! If a group wants to go roughe (how do you spell it?), fine! But not under the name of scouting! If you call yourselves scouts, you abide by the rules, and if you don’t agree with the policies, your free to either try and change them, by using the democratic means that our movement is so very good at, of to leave! I also wonder if these so called scoutleaders have asked “their boys” their oppinion in any other way than “We don’t want girlie girls in our group, do we?”

    Trust me, I’ve seen quite a few girls, who definately haven’t given up on being girls, make wonderful, brave, strong, trustworthy, clever scouts, and in many cases more worthy of being called scouts than some of their male peers! So there!

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